As I was half-reading and half-praying, I came across a passage that I had seen hundreds of times before: “[God] has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6).
That word “together” exploded upon my consciousness – together, together, TOGETHER!
I finally grasped the fact that I am in Christ, and Christ is in me.
From there, everything else fell into place.
If I am seated together with Him, then I ascended together with Him.
If I ascended together with Him, then I was resurrected together with Him.
If I was resurrected together with Him, then I died with Him.
If I died with Him, then “I was crucified with Christ” (Gal. 2:20).
I knew all those Scriptures… I had read them hundreds of times… I had taught these things for years…
But on that day, the written Word became the Living Word.
I saw Him.
I saw myself in Him – just one of the crucified, dead, buried, resurrected, ascended, and seated Branches of a crucified, dead, buried, resurrected, ascended, and seated Vine.
I saw it backwards and forwards, upside down and rightside up, from every possible angle and from every possible color.
I did not realize it at the time, but that day, and the revelation that came to me that day, would mark the beginning of the end of my career as a preacher for Organized Religion.
Because once I saw Christ as He truly is, I began to see the Body of Christ as it really is – and as it should be.
I began to see what a poor, miserable substitute Churchianity has created.
I realized I no longer “fit the suit.”
But I still tried.
My mission from that day forward was to be the Grand Reformer, another Martin Luther who was going to take this revelation into Churchianity and turn the world upside down.
It wasn’t long before my opportunity came.
The next church that extended a ministry position to me probably thought they were getting the typical Assemblies of God pastor.
What they got instead was a disaster (at least in their mind).
From my perspective, I was just speaking the truth and keeping it real.
I couldn’t figure out why loving people and pointing them to Christ caused so much hate and anger.
Today, of course, I get it.
I understand the difference between being Christ-centered and Church-centered.
You see, I had always assumed that being Church-centered was pretty much the same thing as being Christ-centered.
How naïve and foolish I was in those days.
I also assumed that everyone went to church because they wanted to grow spiritually.
Another foolish assumption.
Christ-centered spiritual maturity is NOT the goal of Churchianity; the goal of Churchianity is to keep people in a perpetual state of spiritual immaturity, forever dependent upon the pastor to feed them and the worship team to entertain them.
Scriptural integrity? Only insofar as the Scriptures agree with their way of doing things.
As Jesus said, “You nullify the Word of God with your tradition.”
And as God told Ezekiel, “They come and sit before you as My people, and they listen to what you say, but they won’t do anything you tell them. To them you’re a lovely song playing on an instrument; they enjoy listening to you, but they won’t put anything you say into practice.”
(That’s my paraphrase of Ezekiel 33:31,32.)
Being kicked out of church was the best thing that could have happened to us.
If I had not been kicked out of church, I would still be there trying to reform it.
Trying to fix something that God never intended to be built to begin with.
Occasionally someone says, “Hey Brother Chip, not all churches are bad! What about all the good pastors? What about all the precious people who still go to church? Aren’t you afraid you’re going to offend someone by painting all of them with such a broad brush?”
If the price of saving a few is to offend the many, then no, I’m not afraid of offending the many.
I am more afraid of not doing all I can to help people get delivered from a religion ABOUT Jesus so they can discover a relationship WITH Him.
One time, the disciples of Jesus came to him and said, “Master, don’t You know the Pharisees were offended by what You just said?”
Jesus replied: “Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind, and if the blind lead the blind, they will both fall into a ditch.”
But Lord, what about Nicodemus? Nicodemus was a good Pharisee who supported Jesus! See, not all Pharisees are bad! Oh no, Jesus might have offended Nicodemus by lumping them all together into one broad, general statement about the blind leading the blind! Oh, the shock!
Here’s what Jesus knows: Nicodemus is going to have to decide if he wants to follow Jesus or follow the Pharisees, but there is no way for him to do both at the same time.
“To him who has an ear, let him hear.”
In other words, if the shoe fits, wear it.
That goes for Nicodemus and for everyone else trying to have the best of both worlds.
Choose whom you will serve, because you cannot follow Christ and defend Churchianity at the same time.
If you are sold out for the Lord’s purposes, you are on a head-on collision course with Churchianity.
I’m living proof of that.
Of course, you can try – as I did.
I wish you well, but that’s not my battle.
My fight is for God’s Purposes to be fulfilled in God’s People.
I want to see God’s People delivered from a Church-centered tradition so they can have a Christ-centered Faith.
I want to see God’s People set free from the shackles of spiritual immaturity so they can grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus – spiritually mature, able to serve God and serve others.
I want to see God’s People rightly handle the Word of God, able to handle strong meat, able to exercise discernment, able to test all things, and able to speak the truth in love without hitting people over the head with Bible verses taken out of context.
And that CANNOT happen within the narrow confines of Churchianity.
“Come out of her, My People!” (Rev. 18:4).
The opportunity is Outside the Camp, not inside it.
The Harvest is “out there” not “in here.”
Let the dead bury their dead.
It’s time for us to be about our Father’s business.
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Amen and amen to that!
This could well have been my own story, Chip. I am sure it could be the story of most of those who have chosen to walk away from the institutional church system. I have have grown more in the last 6 years outside churchianity than I ever did in the 25 years I was in it. The reason for this… when the Holy Spirit is your teacher, he leads you into ALL truth!
Dear Chip, I too find that many if not most of my fellow “Christian” brothers and sisters seem more interested in church and church teaching rather than having an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.
The Lord has given me many spiritual poems and writings over the years that are in direct opposition to the practice of learning about God instead of learning of, or from God. These poems are filled with the love of God but often they also contain warnings that are upsetting to the typical Christian.
It seems to me that the message many churches proclaim is Christ died on the cross instead of me. Christ died and set me free. While this certainly is true the opposite side of the coin, crucifixion with Christ, is usually not preached. Certainly the apostle Paul understood and preached this important spiritual truth.
There is a call of God on my life and it is as follows. “My purpose in life is to love Jesus Christ with all of my being and to make Jesus known to those who already know him.”
Because of this call, the message I bring to those who already know him is sometimes very troubling, especially to those sitting in church, because obedience is required in walking with Christ beyond that of praying an initial prayer for salvation.
God bless you Chip as we mutually seek and find a deeper intimacy in Jesus Christ.
Sincerely & in the love of Christ, Chuck Chambers
I thank you so much to find this message!
Chuck, same painful experience here in México. Empty shell churchianity!
Thanks for sharing it! Would love to say more, but my english no good enought!
Big hug from México.
Thank you, Chip. Good stuff.
You don’t offer an alternative. Bashing churchianity is easy, as is leaving the church and giving the impression that people who don’t leave the church are settling for churchianity. But where’s your alternative? It’s not churchianity that established a system of gathering together where there were some with gifts from the Holy Spirit who were to shepherd and teach the flock. It wasn’t churchianity that established the positions of elders and deacons, suggesting some form of organization to the church. It wasn’t churchianity that said not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is. It wasn’t churchianity that originally said, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account,” a command that, once again, has the Word of God describing a church scenario that has organization and leadership. So do you just sit around under a system of disorganization in terms of gathering to worship, ignoring what the Word of God calls us to because you don’t like the way many churches do things? I’m not saying you do; I’m just asking what’s your alternative. The things you say you want to see in God’s people are the same things I want to see in God’s people, and I’m doing what I can, as a pastor of a church (and that doesn’t automatically make me a Pharisee; I hate Pharasaism) to teach God’s Word honestly and fully in the spirit I believe He would have me teach it. My heart is for people to know Christ, to grow in Christ, to share Christ, and to walk by faith in their lives, serving God in accordance with how He has gifted them to serve Him. That is my heart, and I seek to help people do that as a pastor of a church. What is your real-word (not just philosophical) alternative to a gathering of believers with elders and deacons and pastors? And by the way, when God said what He said to Ezekiel in the passage you quoted, He wasn’t criticizing the “system,” for He devised the “system.” When He would speak of the Israelites bringing offerings and sacrifices which He would not accept because of the hearts with which they were brought, He wasn’t trashing the system of offerings and sacrifices; he was judging the phoniness of the hearts of the people. He still expected people to bring sacrifices and offerings, but He wanted them to do it with sincerity. Likewise, the fact that some churches are led by people and filled with people who practice churchianity does not in itself warrant throwing out church (or “organized religion,” as you and many others call it) as some evil thing. The basic church structure as it exists in this country is often biblical on paper; it is the mishandling of it by people that creates churchianity. The solution is not to tear up the paper; it is to do church with hearts sincerely devoted to the Lord. No matter what system you concoct, you will end up with people who do not have such hearts, and that will lead to your system’s own set of problems.
Mark, I’m thankful we live in a country that allows freedom of religious expression, and I actually think Organized Religion serves a purpose in society, but as a pastor, how do you defend something with Scripture that didn’t exist in the New Testament? You’re taking Scripture and making it fit into a system that was created by man, for man. Have you ever questioned why? Why can’t you consider the possibility that there are other ways for believers to assemble together and serve God without going to church? Why does it have to revolve around a structure for it to be legitimate in your eyes? Why do you automatically assume the only alternative to your system is another system? The alternative is already revealed in Scripture and it is not a system, but a living expression of Christ in the earth. We are the Temple. We are the House of God. We are the Royal Priesthood. The alternative I offer, brother, is that you BE the church, point people to Jesus right where they are, and stop shoving church down their throat. The world is sick of that. If you can’t do that for whatever reason, the least you can do is not condemn the many millions of people who also have a heart for God and who have opted out of your church system.
BE. That is the key! Being is for everyday. Being the Church, the Body of Christ, with Christ as our Head. With that truth firmly established, we know that our One True Shepherd leads us daily to DO His Will, and BE evermore affected and transformed by Who He Is. There simply is no substitute for intimacy with our Bridegroom. It is from this place of oneness that the Life and Love of God flows out everyday, wherever we are, no formal building required ?
Right on, right on, right on. We need revolutionaries not rebels.
Hey Duane if that’s the way to feel you would probably like this article: Revival or Reformation?
Thanks Chip very well done!!!!!
Bless you brother !! Some Really good truths here i have a question or 2 for ya do you still speak in churches IF invited ? ever get invited back if so ? and do some of them that invite you get mad at your message or do u stick to Basic Jesus principals ? just curious brother Does it cause problems
Hey William, I used to speak in churches when invited, but I haven’t been invited in years. In the past I may get invited back once or twice but by the third time they either have had enough or they end up closing their doors (literally). I try to stick to basic Jesus principles (as you say) but if I say what Jesus gives me to say it is usually so uncomfortable that they can’t take it. So yes, it does cause problems. I’m not a confrontational person but if you invite me I have to tell you the truth (in love). I’m really not interesting in churches, I’m more interesting in the people who are so far away from church that the church has forgotten about them.
Thank you Chip, this is a message we all need to grab hold and never let go of, I am having such a terrible time trying to understand, I just don’t get it. It seems that we the Church are settled in this Churchianity. I would like to see a prominent pastor get on a nationally known tv channel and just tell the country the Bible Truth.
Very few ‘christians’ know the Bible well enough to be able to see there way out of the mainstream 501c3 ‘church’ clubs. When I first became a born-again child of God, I thought the best thing to do was to “go to church” so I could learn more. I did not realize I was entering a system that had little basis found in the Word of God. Thus, my education became two-fold; eat what they gave me from the scripture. and fight my way out of becoming one of “them”; Well meaning people, but deceived by a system that was decaying their good senses.
What makes you “one of them” is thinking church ‘buildings’ are the only places where you can get your spiritual nourishment. I blame this error for the most part on the ‘pastor’. The Word of God is the final authority, yet pastors are trained, or have learned over time, to manipulate the sheep to get their attention on what ‘he’ says, rather than on the words of scripture. The “Nicolaitan” style leardership, in effect, is for the ‘pastor’ to steal the affection christians should have for Jesus Christ, their Saviour, and train the sheeple to lavish attention and affection upon him. He gets real nervous when christians who know the Bible begin to open it AFTER he gets done preaching, whether at ‘the church building’ or at home. He dislikes “Bereans”, who check the scriptures daily to see if those things are so, when in reality he aught to be joyful that people are looking at what God says and not just taking his word for it.
In studing the scriptures we have found the “church” is the assembled group of Born-again believers gathered “in Jesus Name”, whether just 2 or three. The building is irrelevant. We have also found that the ‘church’ was established in an area that “pastors” (plural) were appointed to “oversee” the flock of God. We found nowhere in scripture where “ONE MAN” was the designated as ‘one voice’ for the ‘church’.
Hello my brother in Christ, I must say that I am happy to see that God is reaching out to his own.
You know I’m just 2yrs out of the institutionalized church and it is so because for the first time in my life, I read through the whole Bible– searching out the truth for myself and allowing the Holy Spirit teach me himself.
I realised that the tithing, structure, priestly garments, altars… e.t.c are just man-made! They don’t even fit into the pattern of the Jewish tradition and they do not exist at all in Christianity.
There’s so many things that we were born into and thought they were part of Christianity but they aren’t! The list goes on.
But as we know, no matter how long falsehood has been– it can never become truth.
Matt 7:13-14 talks about the Broadway that leads to destruction and how many people walk that path. But concerning the narrow way, it says, few find it.
Therefore, that narrow path must be searched for because finding only comes through searching. This applies to those who decide to take the extra pain and walk the extra mile to search for truth through the Scriptures using the Holy Spirit as a guide.
This also proves that the popular isn’t always right. God never promised us that things would go smoothly for us here on earth as 2Tim2:12 tells us that anyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ will be persecuted. Acts 14:22b says it is through much tribulation that we shall enter the Kingdom of God.
I am not a leader or pastor or elder or anyone with a position but I just happen to be very vocal. Talking about being thrown out of a denomination, I quite understand what that is.
I want to encourage you to hold on to the faith and earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints. I pray for all my brothers and sisters in Christ that we will hold on till the end. God bless you and keep you Chip.
Thank you Dawn! That is very encouraging. I find it interesting that most people who come out of church find their spiritual life really explodes with growth. It’s like getting out of the artificial greenhouse and into the fresh air and sunshine.
AMEN Dawn! AMEN to Chip in revealing truth. The Lord called me out of a church long ago. I was so hungry to know all about God, and being led by the Holy Spirit and pursued the Word of God for myself. It totally changed my way of life, my thinking, my walk, intimacy with the Lord. It was outside of the organized religion that I found what I was yearning for. I cried when I got a hold of your book “The Church in the Wilderness”, that is what I exactly went through, as if you read my life story and wrote it for me. I can honestly say, I am not alone in carrying my own cross. Continue your good work and revealing truth, people need to be set free and not feel like an outcast. I fully understand when the Lord says only a “remnant” will survive. God Bless You.
# 2 Tim 3: 12 not 2Tim 2:12
Anyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ will be persecuted.
Sorry. Needed to correct that.
Amen Thank you Brother Chip for sharing truth
hi from Sharon: I love reading your articles about having a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ outside of the mainstream church building. I have not attended a regular physical church myself in a few years. I get most of my teaching from various online ministries that are faithful to the Bible. There is so much false teaching and apostasy in most institutional churches that it is appalling. Many people who go to the physical church are not being taught sound doctrine. I recently read online that a book called” the shack ” which is very popular among evangelicals, but teaches the false doctrine of universalism. Many church attendees do not even believe that Jesus is the only way of salvation, they no longer believe in the virgin birth, the infallibility of the Bible, salvation through grace alone, and other core Christian doctrines. We are living in very sad and dangerous times. God bless.
Chip , I first want to give thanks to God for this article and for your openness and honesty and truth spoken from the inner man for this is what God desires.. I have been pretty much on the same road as you. I was trying to reform the church too of it’s traditions of men and fleshly / intellectual ideas of drawing others to the Church/heresy/institution and then maybe but doubtfully to Christ personally. I was asked to join into men’s leadership by the pastor of a church I was attending a year ago to help with spiritual insight and guidance through prayer for this ministry but not long afterwards I was asked to step down due to the fact that I tried to share with them what the holy spirit was revealing to me that anything that is done here that is not directed by the lord will amount to nothing . the Lord showed me through the holy spirit that there ideas for this ministry were so worldly/fleshly based and from them selves and not from the spirit of GOD to draw more men into the church that they said I was causing to much trouble with my words of exhortation that opposed their ways and plans . The pastor said I was too spiritually minded and deep for them and they were not ready or interested in going that deep with the lord and doing things his way and that they were going to stick to their plan. To tell you the truth I know God was upset (rev 3:20) .I was very upset to say the least for a quite awhile at the church. but God in his goodness has helped me wonderfully to see that (the best thing that ever happened to me was to be kicked out of the church) too. much Thanks for that line. I got a heart lifting joyful chuckle out of it. I just was about to say I am glad to have found your site , but the truth is God in his goodness has obviously allowed it to come across my path. God Bless .
Another good and similar article to the ‘fellowship eludes us’ one. Millions worldwide have now reached this stage and decision re the church system. I have traveled extensively and met people who understand this.
Interestingly great men of God such as Spurgeon and Tozer came to the same conclusions too (please google them). Spurgeon stated ” But mark, going outside the camp in itself is nothing—it is suffering outside the camp that is the great thing. Making myself different from everybody else is nothing—it is suffering for the Truth of God’s sake that is the truly noble thing! It is being crucified with Christ that is honourable! It is not my being a Sectarian or a Separatist. It is not your going outside the camp that is any good—it is your suffering outside the camp that proves you to be a Believer. O Christians, if you have to do the same, rejoice!”. An interesting thought.
However If we realize that the building up of the ‘body’ is the aim of God’s eternal purpose and plan, we will be willing to go outside the camp unto Christ (bearing His reproach) for the building up of the (spiritual) church, the Body of Christ (Hebrews 13:3). We are able to do it in a more relaxed and ‘real’ way, and also in a loving way with no strings attached, even as we are still growing in our love and knowledge of Christ too.
Just my personal experience.
A FEW years ago, while seeking the Lord. I heard this as clear as crystal from within.
I AM BUILDING MY CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT,, My daughter and I am not talking about a Building.
I knew it was the Lord and I knew He was
directly calling me out of “churchanity”
I immediately obeyed and left the building.
I began searching for Him in the word and sitting at His feet. .
I was amazed as to the truth of the word as the truth began to liberate me in each and every aspect of my life.
I was overjoyed, free as what I previously believed to be truth was a lie ( no lie is.of the truth)
After a while I said to my Father,I know this is not new because its the truth of your word, I know that you have taught someone this truth and they are successful applying it to their daily lives. I would be honored if you could lead me to such a person?
You guys probaly figured it out He directly led me to Chip’s website , I was delighted and overjoyed as to most of the truth He showed me in His word, Bro. CHIP was confirming the word of truth in His written essays.
Its like maybe 10 or so years I haven’t step into “the building” and I have no regrets.
Ummm…..let me share this one other aspect of my total deliverance from “the building”
Right after my call to ” come out” on sundays I would get this desire to “Dress n go to church”
The desire was getting out of control and I knew it was my flesh wanting its own way.
I seeked help in prayers. .and the Holy Spirit gave me a “one liner”
He said ask the Fathet to deliver you from ” sunday worship”..I did and I never ever struggled with this again.
Thanks guys for reading as I just wanted to share my two cents.
WENDY
While I respect what Chip Brogden advocates, I see no reason to give up the institutional church. I got saved, called, and now lived as a follower of Christ in the context of the organised church. The argument that the church in the NT was not organised simply is not true. One notes that by the time Paul wrote his letters to Titus and Timothy, we see the beginning of a more organise form. We did not read of elders in the early chapters of Acts, but by the 20th chapter, we are introduced to church leaders called elders. It appears that the church saw the need to organise. Dr. Fee in a class I personally attended taught that the organization of elders and deacons were the beginning of church structure. I agree.
I can’t imagine how God’s work will be done, discipleship, church planting, missions work, and others could be done without the structures we have in the church.
I have experienced hurt from my brothers and sisters in Christ. But the same family that hurts me is the same family that cares for me when I hurt.
A family is “organized” and has “elders” (older brothers and sisters) but that does not justify the kind of institutional religious church system we have today. You admit that it wasn’t until “later” that the church saw the need to organize, then you say you “cannot imagine how God’s work will be done” without structure, yet in fact God’s work WAS done without structure (as a family instead of an religious system) from the very beginning. And His work continues today without structure, unless you think God Himself is bound to only operate within the boundaries that you have constructed. And even if it were true that God needed the kind of “structure” you say He does to do His work, it would a real stretch of the imagination to believe that the man-centered, money-driven, abusive religious system we have today is something we inherited from the early Ekklesia. And even if we did inherit this structure from the Ekklesia, the fruit would tell us that it has become too corrupt to maintain and should be repudiated as false, instead of defended for the sake of tradition. God once blessed Jerusalem and the Temple but when they forsook Him, He withdrew His presence in favor of a spiritual house. I’m glad you were saved in the context of organized religion (many of us were) but that is in spite of the system, not because of it. Now you can choose to live a church-centered life or a Christ-centered life. The decision is yours.
Hi. I have been out of the church system for almost 14 years now and I confess I have found it a pretty hard walk to say the least! . I live in a small town in the UK. I belonged to a spirit filled fellowship. bible centred, with people who showed me a great deal of love (of course not all as we weren’t perfect!). When I left, I left there and then, quickly, after 20 years of being a member there because I believed that was what God had called me to do (otherwise I probably wouldn’t have been obedient to the call). I have found this walk extremely isolating ~ I have constantly called out to the God who I love passionately to show me that I did hear him correctly. The people who had loved me (and I them) did not understand why I did this and all I could say is that is what God told me to do. I have seen very little of any of them in the last 14 years. I am the only christian in my family of a husband and two adult children. Yes, I have grown during this time but I cannot tell you why God has called me, or any other christians (not one of whom I have met in my home town!) out except to say that it is a wilderness walk in my experience. What saddens me is the attitude I read on line from many out of church Christians towards those still worshipping within the established church. Why keep referring to them as ‘the Harlot Church’ – what right have we to assume this! Personally, I believe there will be a time to return to the so called ‘established church’ along with the prodigals who will run back to our Father. I can’t explain why, or when but I do believe this is part of God’s plan in the calling out. If there is anyone else out there from the UK who feel similarly perhaps you could let me know!! Meanwhile, let us trust God for the outcome of all of this work he is presently doing continuing to love one another as Christ has loved us rather than heaping criticism on one another, whether from within or without the church walls.
Hi Gillian, thank you for sharing your journey. What interests me the most is that after 14 years of being out of the church system you still cannot really say “why” God led you out. Why not? There is a solid Scriptural basis to come out of the church system. Those who understand that Biblical and prophetic basis rightly refer to the church system as Babylon, the Mother of Harlots. So to answer your concern as to “what right have we to assume this” – we have every right to speak the truth or at least to simply agree to call things the way God calls them. Paul was not being unkind or unloving when he called the Corinthians “carnal”, he was saying what they were. It IS the harlot church system. I certainly do agree that some people can adopt an air of superiority when they come out, but I find that attitude more prevalent among people inside the system than outside of it. I also don’t believe God is going to call everyone “out” only to call them to go back “in” at some point. If you don’t know what Scripture says then you’re just guessing. Scripture explains why we came out, what we came out of, and why we aren’t going back. I encourage you to dig in deeper and get clarity on this.
Some of the things you write are very interesting, but I see lots of hatred in what you share here. It seams to me that you are still strugling with all that pain that come from beeing part of what you call christian religion. Why haven’t you become a muslim, I wonder.
You are not a very careful reader, are you Charles?
Charles, there is absolutely no hatred against the believers but against the system that has so absorbed the believers.
A lie cannot become truth. When a lie has been polished to look like truth, you know that is going to be a big problem. And when you discover that you’ve been served a lie instead of truth, you don’t go about smiling and laughing over it; you get mad! Why?
Because you’ve believed a lie thinking it was truth. And now with that, all you want to do is go all out and tell everyone what the truth really is because you want them free.
This is just an illustration. No one is mad at the believers. The anger is against the system and the lies we have believed over time. The call is to go back to the Word– just you and your God and he will lead you on from there.
I hope this makes sense. But if it doesn’t, I trust the Holy Spirit to handle it.
We’ve been “in and out” of IC since the early 80’s. The “in” times thinking we could maybe get them to introduce things like everyone sharing a song, a hymn, etc. Now we are DONE. We have learned a lot, especially the important lesson related in this article–ITS ALL ABOUT CHRIST! and of not being angry or bitter. Thankyou!
My wife and I searched for a church here in Crete. We found one that we had attended for about ten years. It was Bible based and did not hinder the gifts of the Spirit. Our pastor was not a paid pastor but he held a job in town to make ends meet. For a number of years we were growing in the word and in the church. I did’nt hurt that it was being taught in the Greek language, because of the richness of the Greek language. The church believed in tithing but spent little time on promoting it.
I was introduced to Chips teachings before we started to attend the church, but felt that going to church was a good thing. I did not tithe but gave offerings to support paying rent and other bills that the building we were in required.
Over the past number of years we noticed a lot of rules about dressing and praying and a lot of pulpit bashing.The pastor used the pulpit to vent many times and it was getting old. He was centring out those who did not pray out loud or prayed not according to certain guidelines that were set. I had shared once in front of the ekklesia how the Lord had touched me and it was a very powerful experience. The next week one of his elders gave the message and basically belittled what I had shared. Love was waxing cold. Through a series of dreams and revelation from the Lord He was showing us it was time to get out. I served in the church doing computer work and was also on a list of helpers for cleaning duty. One day I just took all the churches stuff back that I had used in ministry and said goodbye. I did sit down with the pastor and shared why we were doing this and he just seemed ignorant of it all. It hurt me to do this because we were in this church for many years.
One day my wife and I were sharing and I said what was the name of that man that wrote the article on terminating the tithe. It was Chip something and my wife said Brogden.. Praise Jesus yes!. We have been out for two months now. Chip I have read all your books and most of the articles and both my wife are free from churchianity and we are growing in leaps and bound’s. It is as if spiritual chains have been removed from us. It is truly all about Jesus and we are learning without the church how to love Him with all our hearts and it is awesome.
We thank the Father that He has given you this ministry of love.
Thank you for sharing your story, Edward. It is a common theme – we start out with something that seems to be an exception to the rule, but over time it drifts away from the simplicity of Christ. So glad to hear that you are exactly where God wants you to be now – reduced to Christ, growing in Him, free in Jesus.
what is your view about organic church?. and. house church.
It can be a good thing, but in my experience it often manifests itself as just another way of doing church. It takes more than changing where you meet to get over the religious spirit.
Great article Chip!! This article was literally a “god-send” this Sunday morning as I contemplated where we belong and why we aren’t in a good faith community (emphasis on “faith”) We were more or less kicked out of our last church since my wife was prompted by the Holy Spirit to pray out in a Sunday morning service. What’s interesting is that the church was believing for revival and praying more frequently leading up to my wife’s praying out. Another aspect of this “coming out” that many are experiencing is due to the fact that faith is slowly dying in His body. We want things to be clean and neat but still try to allow the gifts of the Holy Spirit and what He might want to speak through someone. Well, two weeks later after my wife prayed out she was “invited” to a two-hour meeting with the Pastor’s wife (who I really feel had the issue with my wife praying out) and explained to why she couldn’t do that on a Sunday morning. We were asked to submit to this request however we decided this wasn’t for us so we made a decision and quietly left. A few of our friends even went to the leadership and tried to get them to change their minds (it was only the pastor and his wife at that point that were in disagreement with my wife praying out) but to no avail. It left a bad taste in our mouth once again for the organized church (at least in the northeast region). My wife and I have a call on our lives for ministry and have slowly been moving in the direction to start something. We love people and, like you, have a burden to see people walk in true “Freedom” and to pursue Jesus with all their hearts. That is what it’s all about. Blessings to you and thank you again.
Thanks for reading and sharing your experience, Jim. You really have to experience that freedom for yourself before you can bring it to others.
Chip:
Perhaps you have written about this already, but will you comment on how you practice the call for Jesus’ followers to “go and make disciples … and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” It appears both from Jesus and from Paul that there is to be some “gathering” experience wherein mature believers provide Spirit-led instruction, correction and training for those less-mature in being Jesus’ focused in every area of their lives. (I am acknowledging the poverty of this taking place in the typical church experience.) Having served in more traditional church roles for over 40 years, I have learned to grieve the immaturity we seem to promote and excuse – which surely dishonors Jesus.
Hey Mike! The first disciples experienced LIFE together with Jesus, going through stuff and learning as they went. The early believers did much of the same, until someone decided they needed to get more organized, and soon the Book of Revelation records the sorry state of 5 out of 7 of them – lost their first love, corrupt, compromised, lukewarm, etc. I’m pretty sure that “go and make disciples” has nothing to do with gathering people into church buildings and entertaining them. I would not offer an alternative form of “place” as a solution to what is fundamentally a problem with how we frame the issue. Maybe it should be thought of as, “As you are going into all the world, you will make disciples of everyone you happen to meet when they see Who you have, and they will want to follow Me when they see your love and obedience – your Relationship will win people where Religion has turned them off.” More along the lines of a lifestyle, rather than a scheduled event or a fixed location. Wherever you are, there He is, and discipleship can happen anywhere, anytime.
Great article. My wife and I were just discussing this morning why we never seem to “fit” into most Americanized first world churches.
I recently read that most churches/ministries are “keepers of aquariums” instead of “fishers of men”.
I believe the Lord has shown me that there are sheep and warriors that we will interact with.
Sheep want to be comfortable and not stretched. They desire to be fed and taken care of. They are easily swayed and manipulated. Sheep make up most of what is in churches and society today and therefore they are easily fooled into doing what a charismatic leader tells them to do.
Warriors desire to fight and expand Kingdom territory. They cannot and will not “hang out” in small groups or life groups. Friendly church annoys us and we are often called rebels when we ask questions. We desire to do battle and we are hungry to find other people that may think the same way. Warriors have difficulty spending time around sheep and they especially struggle with submitting to the leadership of someone that is a sheep.
My assignment has been to love and encourage the sheep. And to identify, train, equip and be sharpened by other warriors.
One other question.
I recently attempted to do a study on the word Pastor. I was intrigued to find that the word is not really in the Bible. There are a few references to shepherd (44 total, 14 in New Testament), but not anything that looks like the term Pastor that we see in our society.
Have we just invented this position to make it fit what we think church should be in our society?
I agree with you about “coming out of her” and that it is not about more religion but
Truly getting to know Jesus Christ. We should be preparing for the Lord’s Return.
Chip, I have a story I would like to share that corresponds to why I do not go to church any more. When I read your article it corresponded to everything I have been writing about the church. I read it to my wife and she thought I had written it. I believe churches prevent the mind from allowing the Soirit to renew the mind and focus on what we are in Christ and what He is in us. I am a living testimony of a person who puts Paul’s statement in 2 Corinthians 3:2-3, “Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart” into practice in my life. He goes on to say that the letter of the law kills. This is what I found that the church was doing to me, killing me spiritually so that my goal was not what I was as a heavenly citizen, but what the church wanted me to be in the flesh. But the Spirit in me is alive. The Word has been made alive in me without pastors teaching me from the pulpit like we find in Hebrews 4:12 which has made that verse in Ephesians 2:6 along with Colossians 3:1-4 a living reality in my life. The whole Bible became alive to me. I have thousands and thousands of pages of notes in my study of the Bible that talk about how I have been changed from glory to glory because I stopped listening to the wisdom of man and started listening to the wisdom of God. I would like to talk to you more.
I agree with this article. People are obsessed with religion and church. I noticed how vague wealthy people in the church are. Many don’t want friendship with people that are not involved in their church. Where is Christ in all this. Very few church goers are loving. But, not Christ-loving.
Just found this website. I thank the Lord that He lead me here. After being in organized religion for most of my life I know I will never be a part of it again. I could tell of countless sad things I have seen….and experienced. I spent 7 years of my life being very sick. I was not physically able to go to church. It was in those years the Lord taught me truth and who He is…..everyday He told me who I am and how much He loves me. I tried going back to church after the Lord healed my body. I tried to find a church. I never have ever felt like I fit in….because I don’t any longer. The churches are Not what God ever intended for them to be. I am humbled that he has given me discernment and also strength to follow Him.
Looks pretty well explained. Too many Legalists out there that follow Torah and Old Testament dead works laws.
Thank you very much for your article. I just read your latest also, ‘What could be greater than Truth?’ and it hit some things that my wife and I have experienced. We left the church seen to be seeking a true expression…not knowing what it really looks like. We only knew that what we experienced wasn’t it. That was in 1992. Since then we have had fellowships that when the truth of scripture was shared, ‘churchianity’ became their alternative and we lost relationships. Since those times, we have tried Anabaptism and ended in confronting leadership on truly sinful things that are allowed because the ‘brotherhood’ voted for it. Garbage! We went back to what we knew to be true: Christ’s Spirit leads us daily to follow and love Him and others. Since going back to that, no one chooses to walk with us because we are not a ‘church’. The level of commitment is seen as too difficult and ‘perfect’. We say they don’t have to do what we hold ourselves to and love them in ‘their walk with Christ’…but our witness is much too bright and they go away never to return.
The joy of knowing and following in the way of Jesus is lonely! Yet, it is extremely fulfilling. What else can we do?